Sports Science Topic - April 13, 2009

Posted by Jonty Skinner on Apr 13, 2009 08:00AM (5,739 views)

In general, what body shape is best suited for swimming? If you think there is one, what shape would that be and why is that shape the best? I've added a few shapes to give you a list of options, or if you feel like it, come up with your own. Adonis... as in broad shoulders, slim hips and rippling muscles. Skinny... as in lean muscle and sinewy. No waist... as in very little difference between the size of the hips, waist and shoulders. Pear shape... hips slightly bigger than the shoulders. Glenn Mills shape... no description available.

Body Shape, passive drag, active drag

Responses

camy	Responded Apr 13, 2009 01:26PM Glenn Mills shape ? I can't find any "head to feet" picture, neither here nor on facebook (too many homonyms, are you the yellow goldorak one ? I'm kidding...)... I haven't seen many pear shaped swimmers, wether boy or girl. Some good young no waist swimmers, when they grow old, become either skinny or adonis. For example, the french 2008 olympic swimmer Alain Bernard was kind of skinny some years ago, but today (as he is a sprinter on 50m and 100m) he has got ripling muscles (couldn't find the word "ripling" in my dictionary but I guess it means big muscles! ).
Juliette	Responded Apr 13, 2009 03:03PM what about lenght?????.....am I a worse breaststroker because of me being not so tall???.1.22 mtr
fiZZLe	Responded Apr 13, 2009 03:24PM I don't know how much height can make you a bad breaststroker. Damir Dugonjic is over 2meters tall. Better at cheating in the short course pool, but he is up there in LCM races! I would say the Glenn Mills shape is good to fill in any gaps in one of the new suits haha. I think broad shoulders make a negative impact on fly and breast, but do not matter so much in the freestyle and backstrokes. More muscle is not a bad thing especially with the aid of new suits. Most of the top swimmers in the world have plenty of muscle and very little body fat. Females of course naturally have more bodyfat, but some are still pretty slim! The no waist is probably ideal. Ideally if I were to pick the best human features for swimming it would be no waist, mixture of bodyfat and muscle to make smooth surfaces(that have enough muscle to be rigid on the surface hah), Pear shaped swimmers are doomed, but probably can do alright if they are fit and healthy amount of body fat. Female swimmers seem to be more pear shaped or in general have more curves than male swimmers. Probably a player in most female swimmers being slower all around..
James Stuart	Responded Apr 13, 2009 05:28PM Height does not matter on breaststroke - its just how good technique is - at local swimming club there are plenty of girls who were same age as you are good at breaststroke. I heard reports that height or broad shoulders does not matter as well, its just depends over how athelic (forget how to spell) person is
Glenn Mills	Responded Apr 13, 2009 06:01PM Beautiful. I'm now a shape!!! Hey, it's in the science discussions with Jonty... it's official. It's like being a has-been... at least it's something right? I specifically like Billy's description of filling in the gaps of the new suits. That means it's a pliable shape too! Ever changing. I saw a great show on TV this past weekend called "Time Warp". In it, they film various events at super slow motion. One of the subjects was about creating the fastest shape to fall in, and the difference between cubes and more cylindrical objects. In their test they used smoke while free-falling from an airplane and determined that nature defines the one of the most aerodynamic shape in each rain drop. A softly rounded front end with a tapered back. What body type this defines, man... I have NO idea. For the perfect swimmer, it seems there has to be a mix between the adonis shape, which would give the strength and endurance necessary to power our way through the water, and the some inverted pear shape thingy. From what I've witnessed over many years, swimmers have, and continue to be extremely well conditioned, but it seems the difference in many of the top swimmers, is the ability to stay in a more hydrodynamic position for longer periods of time. I would attribute this to the increased focus of flexibility, maybe helping to create a shape that travels through the water better. Just a shot in the dark on this one, but it seems to me, that like the rain drop, one of the most important things about body shape would be cleaning up the back end, especially during streamlines, pushoffs, and underwater dolphins. Now, back on to the Glenn Mills body shape. I encompass a mixture of all of them... like a shape shifter. I keep my body soft on purpose for this reason. Sure, I could be cut, ripped, adonis like... I just chose NOT to. ;)
Cesar	Responded Apr 13, 2009 08:25PM Around 1,90 m. tall, flat pectoral, core larger than legs, long muscle fibers, and big feet of course.
sprinter	Responded Apr 14, 2009 07:17AM Glenn, you are a shape shifter indeed. You even fit into a swimming cap :D :D :D Julliette, you will still grow a lot, your technique will change as well. Who knows, perhaps you will be a good breaststroker later.
Zsofia Agnes Nagy	Responded Apr 14, 2009 07:36AM Flexibility and the effort to change our shape as it is needed (I know: easy to say, difficult to do). So I agree with Glenn. I always felt, that finding the best hydrodinamic shape for my " original shape" is always depending on how I can adapt / feel the water at the given time. Though an overall lean body would be the best (the one that you could squeeze into a tube...:-)) As for the "Glenn Mills shape".....no matter what, it must be very good for this sport, as it helped you to earn an olympic team spot and a lot more back then....so you must have used it very well.
Jonty Skinner	Responded Apr 14, 2009 04:12PM A lot of great thoughts… there are so many factors that go into what I call the genetic jackpot, and getting them to all line up like the stars is not that rare. Since we’re talking about shape, if I had to choose, I’d choose a shape that didn’t have much difference between their hips and their waist. Which for those of you who don’t know this, Glenn was one of those swimmers who used to look like that. So not huge shoulders, more of a barrel shape, no waist and bigger hips. The Adonis shape works these days as Billy said due to the suits, and has always had a shot at the sprint events, but those wide shoulders flat chest and skinny hips with no glutes to speak off doesn’t work as well when it comes to passive drag. The cost of getting through the water is much higher. Since a few people have mentioned height… the Froude number (pronounced frood) of an athlete in water is directly proportional to their height. So height can be a factor if it is used correctly. It basically says that an athlete’s potential velocity is directly related to their height. So tall people based off technique can swim short and lose potential velocity, and people like Erik Vendt can swim very tall and gain velocity. People with more adipose tissue that can be molded (as Glenn says) into a very seamless shape in the new suits have a greater potential than their Adonis peers when it comes to taking advantage of their circumstances. Not another reason to enter the world of excess fat, but another reason why people with more to them than they’d probably prefer can still bring it if they want. So go for it! The bottom line (Juliette) in all of this is the fact that winning the genetic jackpot is very possible, but there are so many elements that have to fall into place to make that jump from genetic gift to Olympic Champion. I won’t go into what that entails, but just know that the key is “bringing it” with whatever you were given, and many an Olympic Champion have more than beaten the odds based on what they had to bring to the dance.
wweil	Responded Apr 14, 2009 05:38PM As a Physical Therapsit, I can generally tell the stroke and distance by the shape of the body. Sprinters tend to be tall and thin with big feet. Distance swimmers are genrally a bit shorter and not as muscular. Backstrokers tend to have a bit of Pectus Carinarum (the sternum bows out somewhat in the chest). Flyers are usually more V shaped. Breastrokers come in all sizes, but the hips are gerally turned out in Feral Retroversion so they walk a bit duck-footed.
Glenn Mills	Responded Apr 14, 2009 05:45PM :) Thanks WW! And I'll Quack to THAT.
sprinter	Responded Apr 14, 2009 07:18PM Cool, that's quite interesin, wweil. I'll pay more attention tomorrow if the breaststrokers in "my" team quack as well. I'll V to that :D
James Stuart	Responded Apr 14, 2009 07:31PM As quoted by Glenn as I saying to him as I am 5ft 9ins - so how I complete to others which is tall, which make swim fast easier so he says "extend" - do you gals/guys agree with him saying it? I felt he is right but HOW?
Jonty Skinner	Responded Apr 15, 2009 02:21PM Stuart Although I’d like to say otherwise, taller people have an advantage, well until they get into older buildings that have low ceilings or doorways, then it becomes a real pain in the head so to speak. My daughters were amazed at how many scars I had on my head when I cut my hair real short a few years ago… the disadvantages of being tall I said. Yesterday I spoke about the hull length and how that impacts velocity… so you know that swimming tall is important… however, I suspect you’re a sprinter, and so swimming tall becomes much harder because you’re caught in that position where you have to swim with a fast rate. Not as easy to manage. Ultimately swimming comes down to these areas. Metabolic cost relative to shape, drag, power and rate. So if you’re shorter, you have to do a better job of reducing drag by manipulating your shape. Work hard on land and in the water to improve the power that you can apply to the anchor point relative to the rate that you swim. So a swimmer who can produce a distance per cycle of 3+ meters per cycle at a rate of 60 cycles per minute will crush the world. No contest. Do you have to be over 2 meters tall to do that… it might help, but it doesn’t stop someone with your height from training to achieve those same values… like I said swimming is all about those areas. Understand them, manipulate them, and then get the most out of what you can put together.
James Stuart	Responded Apr 16, 2009 12:22AM Reducing drag by manipulating your shape - how I do that? I did work hard on land doing weights three times a week, cardio twice a week and core strength "dry land exercise" five times a week. Not sure over you saying I has to improve power on water - how I do that? cos its just a WATER nothing else. I am really keen what you saying that I need apply to the anchor point relative to the rate that I swim. I guess I have to understand and manipulate those tall swimmers. Its just not fair :(
Jonty Skinner	Responded Apr 16, 2009 05:37PM By manipulating shape I mean that you have to line up and connect these four blocks of human real estate. The head, the upper torso (to the bottom of the rib cage), the lower torso, hips and lower body. When you do that you effect a much better shape. If you add some tension or tone to that shape, then that shape will travel through the water with less resistance. So by manipulation I mean that you have to swim with a superior body platform or shape, you have to come off walls and enter the water off the dive with a perfect body line and maximize block and wall velocity. So no room for error. That way the lazy people who are tall and tend to be more exposed when it comes to shape issues will wonder how the world you got the better of them.
James Stuart	Responded Apr 16, 2009 07:09PM Connect four blocks of human real estate mmm not easy task. Wondering how I train to connect ALL those at pool mmm any guess how? Add some tension or tone to that shape to swim faster through the water with resistance sounds like not easy task either - how I do that as well? sorry if I annoying you Jonty lol
juan	Responded Apr 17, 2009 06:23PM Opino que depende mucho de la especialidad del nadador yaque un pechista no puede ser tal delgado de espalda, por citar un ejemplo, creeo que eso es parte del estilo personal de cada quien, es decir que una cosa es la tecnica reglamentada y otra cosa muy diferente es el estilo.
gnem	Responded Apr 21, 2009 09:01AM I'm 6'4" and have to say that I find it almost at a disadvantage.... rotating my body is more difficult and slower than a little person, the arms are tough to coordinate on entry in freestyle (hate freestyle entry and roll!!!). height is helpful for me in dolphin kicking though.

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Sports Science Topic - April 13, 2009

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